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Tyler Seacrest's avatar

Greatly enjoyed the article. Just for fun, not that I think I'm right or you're wrong, here is a criticism of the second level of triplism. I know you are aware of this criticism as you reference it multiple times in the piece (how the other two are "belong in a first-pass list of genuine ontological ingredients", implying the second is a bit shakier, and one other place too.) But I want to push you on it.

So let's talk about "implicit content", "meaning", "model", "representation", etc. These form a cluster of words that are all related and are important to many physicalist conceptions of the mind-body problem. But what are these things?

Here is a eliminativist-friendly definition. Suppose X and Y are real things that actually exist. Then X represents Y to the extent that there are structural similarities between them. These structural similarities could be the internal structure of X and Y, or they could be how X and Y fit into a larger environment. For example, the symbols "{{ab}, {bc}, {ac}}" written on a page and a triangle drawn on the page have similar internal structures, so these could represent each other. The word "car" written on a page and an actual car don't have any internal structure in common, but they play a similar roles: the word "car" often appears together with the word "driving" in a sentence, and a real car is something I could actually drive.

Okay, but what does similar mean? Humans are really good at abstracting in this way and thus would be good judges of similar, but of course if we're trying to understand human consciousness appealing to humans isn't too helpful. Another option is to use physical interaction as a guide. Stonehenge is a good example: it provides a sort of representation for the movement of heavenly bodies by how the light from the sun is in physical coincidence with boundaries of the stone structure. I think you could say Stonehenge is meaningful apart from any humans because of that physical connection between the stone and the heavenly bodies given by light. Similarly, I think one can say the brain represents the real world because of the sensory inputs and motor outputs that connect the brain and the real world -- you do a great job of going into more detail in your article. Suppose in an otherwise empty universe a square, a triangle, and the symbols "{{ab}, {bc}, {ac}}" magically appear. There is no special connection between the symbols and the triangle, because there is no physical coincidence aligning their internal structure, and there is no one to judge similarity.

Critically, nothing outside of physics appears in this definition: the brain, real world, sensory inputs and motor outputs all uncontroversially physical. So what is this mind mug you're talking about? What is the second level of triplism? What are Papineau's "physically realized higher properties"? True, there can be neurons that play a similar role in a brain as a car does in the real world, but it's still just neurons in there. Consider the case of a simple universe with no consciousness where the fundamental particles tend to form equilateral triangles. They don't actually form equilateral triangles: they just exists in the locations that they are. The idea that they form equilateral triangles is an idea in my head as a conscious human, not something that exists in that universe. To specify otherwise would to suggest mathematical entities are real and exist outside of various universes.

Now to be clear, I believe in a much richer picture than what I'm painting here. I believe the points do form equilateral triangles, I believe "{{ab}, {bc}, {ac}}" and an triangle have shared representational content even with no one around to judge, and I believe in the second level and implicit content. Indeed, I believe in just about everything that one could believe in. The point is that in order to take even the tiniest baby step from eliminativism to something richer, you have to grant the existence of something that is outside of the raw physical ontology.

You might say "A building is made out of bricks. The building is conceptually something more and distinct from the bricks, but ontologically it's still just bricks". But then you've used the word "conceptually", which is another one of these words like "models", "meaning", "higher-level properties", etc. Either these words are talking about a thing or they are not talking about anything. If they are not talking about anything, then we accept eliminativism. If they are talking about something, then we're already in dualism. And if we're in dualism already, why not accept redness as a real thing?

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The Good Determinist's avatar

Lots here to respond to, thanks for all the work you've put into this. For now just a couple things from my phenomenal realist perspective and some links to relevant papers.

Re Dennett's afterimage of a red stripe: the represented red involved in the afterimage is no less real than that the represented red of an apple you see in front of you. Both are phenomenal (qualitative) contents with a corresponding neural substrate - the representational vehicle. The apple is spatially located but not the red in terms of which it appears, hence, as you put it, the red is virtual, or as I'd put it, part of your *representational* reality, as contrasted with what it represents - *represented* reality. I agree that "we only know about external reality through its neural representations...everything we think is real is similarly known to us via neural models." So the physical (external) appears in terms of the virtual - the content of the neural model. I've critiqued Dennett's red stripe at https://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/consciousness/dennett-and-the-reality-of-red

I agree that "Virtualism insists that the 'real seeming' is only dependent on the neural models and their implicit content, and it is not due to anything playing out on an inner screen of consciousness..." There is no such screen, but if we construe phenomenality as (real) content carried by the neural vehicles, then talk about phenomenality has what you call a vindicating target: a real, existing intentional object - the content. This contrasts with talk about unicorns which, since they don't exist, are the *non-existent* intentional objects of such talk. I explore this contrast at https://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/consciousness/why-qualia-arent-like-unicorns-a-defense-of-phenomenal-realism

I've got a 2019 JCS paper on this stuff at https://naturalism.org/sites/naturalism.org/files/Locating%20Consciousness_0.pdf and a more recent preprint along the same lines at https://psyarxiv.com/79xg8

Looking forward to more on virtualism...

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