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Tyler Seacrest's avatar

Nicely written! I am a big fan of analogies, and the horse / unicorn analogy I think is very helpful here in explaining the source / target language.

Note I think you missed a period here:

> perspective A description of that perspective, even an

Here is another thing I've been thinking about in regards to your central argument. It concerns my friend Bob, who lives on the moon and sustains himself mostly via moon cheese. As you may be able to tell, Bob doesn't actually exist. But he thinks he exists, and claims to exist on every imaginary phone call we have. He says "Cognito ergo sum! I just notice my own thoughts and own experiences, and even if I don't understand the fundamental nature of those thoughts, something must exist to be generating them". This happens to be the exact same reason I think I exist! Yet Bob is wrong. So am I wrong too? Or maybe correct merely via coincidence and not correct logic?

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Will to Truth's avatar

I have an issue with calling zombies logically impossible. I take the thought to be that consciousness is in fact physical, so it can't be both physical and non-physical and the zombie scenario would be nonsense if physicalism were true. But it I don't take it to be analytically true that consciousness is physical which means, before science, what consciousness meant does make sense to say it can or can't be removed from some physical states or processes.

I think of consciousness as similar to water and H20 and you can tell me if you disagree. I think the clear drinkable liquid in lakes and rivers could have been xyz. It's logically possible anyways that something with those properties wasn't a particular chemical. My understanding of your claim of zombies being logically impossible is like saying it is logically impossible that water is not H20. But that seems like equivocating a bit and like you're talking past the zombie argument people because they mean something like what people meant by water before we discovered H20 and what you mean by water just is H20.

I think it's helpful for me to think about this issue in terms of analytic and synthetic identities. I don't see how mental states being whatever substance, process, system, whatever, can be analytically derived, which is why the hard problem seems so hard. But it can be synthetically theorized about and the most plausible explanation given our observations is that mental states are physical states because of all the correlations and whatever other arguments one could make. What convinces me to stop being baffled by consciousness as much as I used to be is making the analytic synthetic identity difference clear. Then I realized lots of stuff has concepts which are unable to be derived from one another, yet in reality, they are the same.

One of the most helpful points I've read from you is that epiphenominalism can't be believed in in virtue of its truth which ought to make one highly skeptical if not throw out the theory. You pull apart the reason why we believe in the view and the actual consequences of the view being true which is helpful. I don't care about platonism, other than for being unintelligible, for the exact reason you gave about epiphenominalism before. If it is defined out of the causal chain, so you dont believe it in virtue of its truth and you'd believe it if it weren't true anyways, what work is it doing?

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